GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Good morning, everyone. The bipartisan immigration deal endorsed by Ted Kennedy and George Bush survived its first week on the Senate floor, but can it hold up over the Memorial Day recess and another week of Senate debate after that? Here to discuss the deal this morning, one of its key architects, Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez and one of its key critics Democratic Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey. Welcome to both of you.
SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Thank you.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) Good to be with you here.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And I know that both of you think the current immigration system is broken. Both of you think the status quo is unsustainable and that the legalization provisions are not amnesty. But let me begin, Secretary Gutierrez, by having you respond to some of Senator Menendez's concerns. Number one, that the bill, as written, would divide families and number two, that the guest worker program would serve to create a permanent underclass of American Workers.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) Well, first of all, we think this bill goes a long way toward uniting families. First of all, think about the families who are in the country who are at risk at all times of undergoing raids. We have a backlog of green cards and part of the compromise is that we are going to accelerate that backlog of green cards. And during that time period, 74% of the green cards that we will give out will go to family members. That's an all-time high. That will be a surge of family unification. So, you know, you can pick out, as the president said, one aspect of this bill and blow up a conclusion. The reality is that this is a fair bill. It does take into consideration families. It brings together families and it's workable. So we've got the right balance.
SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Well, with all due respect to the secretary, it undermines the very core of family reunification and in my mind, in the long term, it tears families apart. Why? Under this bill, a United States citizen claiming their immediate family ultimately loses a right and does so in a way that gives them less of a benefit than those who came into the country, did not obey the law, didn't follow the rules and, in fact, will get a benefit, including up to January 1st of 2007. If I was claiming someone abroad as a United States citizen, I lose my right as of May, 2005. Why should a United States citizen have less than a right - who obeyed the law, followed the rules, than someone who came in undocumented? Secondly, when did my children, when did my parents, when did my brother and sister not become part of what I've always heard on the floor of the United States Senate about family values? It dramatically cuts at that.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Let me press on that because the immigrants who left are the ones who first left their families and under the bill, as I understand it, the point system would still give some value to families, but it also puts more emphasis on education, on the ability to speak English, on skills. Why shouldn't brains and enterprise like that matter more? SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Well brains and enterprise should matter and it can be part of the equation, but not to the detriment of families. Under the bill, families don't even get a point unless they get to a certain numeric number, then they get some points. It seems to me that under a 100-point system, that families should be able to get 10 or 15 points as overall value, but not only if they've already reached a certain level. That's why this bill doesn't work well in terms of families. And under this bill, George, maybe your family would not have been able to come to this country. Certainly my family would have not been able to come to this country, the son of a carpenter and a seamstress. You know, Jonas Salk, His family wouldn't have been able to come to this country and produce a polio vaccine. General Petraeus, if you look at the history of some of the greatest Americans - Colin Powell, under this bill his family would have not come to this country.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Let me give you a chance to respond on these things.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) I don't agree with that. Let me just give you one very simple number to show because what we're trying to find here is a balance. And if you look at the polls, the American people agree that we should take into account more skills and talent and occupational experiences when we're bringing in immigrants. In the future with this new system that so-called will break up families, 51% of all the green cards that we will give will be family based, 51%. That's the new system. Seventeen percent or so will be humanitarian reasons and the rest will be employment so that is a balance system. What we're looking for is a balance and we believe the American people want a balance.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) I want to move on to another subject here but Senator Menendez, let me ask you quickly, if your amendments on these family issues are not accepted can you support the bill? SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Well, I'll have to see what the very final version is. I have amendments. I'm working on an amendment with Senator Clinton on legal permanent residence and Senator Dodd on parents. We'll have to see which one of those make it. But I suspect – GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) But if they don't? SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Well I would hope the family values crowd put their votes where their values are.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And if these amendments do pass, even though the Senator didn't quite answer my question but I think the answer to his question is no, but if the amendments do pass does this undo the deal? CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) Well I'm not going to speculate on individual amendments. I will say this, we've been working - this is a bipartisan group. As you mentioned Senator Kennedy, Senator Kyl, a lot of bipartisan work and we have what we believe to be a great compromise, a real bipartisan compromise, and I would hate because some people have tweaks and some minor points on the edges that the whole compromise comes crashing down and we have a historic one-time the best shot we will have to fix this system. I'd hate to lose it because people have some concern.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And in your view none of the amendments in the first week undid the deal? CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) Well, no, I'll tell you, I'm a little bit worried about taking the temporary workers permit down to 200,000. I think we need to reinstate the escalator. One of the problems – GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) That would increase the number of temporary workers who are allowed in the country.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) If we needed to. If we needed to. If the marketplace called for it. What we need to understand is that unless we have a legal system by which we can bring in temporary workers, then we're leaving a void that can be filled by illegals and that's exactly what we're trying to avoid. We've thought this system through. We're worked at it. We believe we have a good system. That is what we are fixing.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) So you believe the guest worker is necessary. You believe it's going to create a permanent underclass.
SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Well, it basically says there are two classes of individuals who can come to the country under the guest worker program. One that can bring family and ultimately adjust their status to the United States. The other one that is worthy of giving their sweat and labor but never finding a pathway to a permanent residency. I think that that ultimately creates a permanent underclass and actually exacerbates the very essence of what we're trying to resolve once and for all which is to have a safe, legal and orderly process of who can come into this country and for what purposes, but at the same time doesn't incentivize people to ultimately overstay their visas. And so it seems to me that unless you do that and have labor protections to make sure that there isn't the downward pressure on overall wages, all American workers get affected by the program as it's devised.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Let me move to the issue of cost because many Senators have been influenced, as you know, by a study by a man named Robert Rector at the Heritage Foundation who says low-skilled immigrant families take much more in government benefits than they pay in taxes. He says on average about $1.2 million each over 60 years and he says this deal will make the problem even worse.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) He writes, by granting amnesty to illegal immigrants who are overwhelmingly low skilled and creating massive new guest worker programs that would bring millions of additional low-skill families into the nation, such legislation, if enacted, would impose massive costs on the US taxpayer.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Secretary Gutierrez, are his numbers right? CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) I believe that's absolutely wrong. One of the things we have to understand and recognize is that our economy needs low-skilled labor. We can't go without it. There are jobs that happen to be low-skilled jobs and we do not have enough Americans to fill those jobs. If we don't fill those jobs, our economy will suffer. Under our program, by the way, our Z visa holders, out worker – GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) These are the Illegals who are here now get a chance to be provisionally legal.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) - who will have a chance - yes, who will have a chance to work, they will not be eligible for welfare. They will not be eligible for food stamps. They will not be eligible for Medicaid so these are all myths that are being thrown out and frankly our economy needs them. That is the bottom line and that's what many people just don't realize this. We have to do this. If not, our economy will suffer. It's just part of an evolution of the economy. We have moved on. We have evolved but these jobs are still there.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Do you agree these are myths? Mr. Rector says the cost of this deal could be over $2 trillion over the next generations.
SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) I think that his study is fundamentally flawed and look at immigrant communities throughout the country. They have revitalized communities. In my home state of New Jersey we've seen communities that have been dramatically revitalized. The entrepreneurial spirit of these immigrants, the incredibly hard work ethic, the sense of strong families and family reunification as a core principle in which our society is strengthened. You know, a trillion dollar domestic marketplace just by the Latino community itself and growing dramatically in terms of its economy. Fastest rate of growth of small businesses in the nation, Latino-owned businesses. So the bottom line is, these are people who are strengthening the economy of our country and if we do this the right way, they can continue to dramatically give the economy a much needed boost.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) So on this issue you both agree. Let me turn before we go to the politics of this. Secretary Gutierrez, as you know, this deal has enraged a lot of conservatives in your party. Just about every presidential candidate except for John McCain has come out against it. Jim Gilmore is going to be on the program next. He's written a letter to the head of the American Conservative Union that's going to come out tomorrow.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) And in it he says, in agreeing to a deal that places our national security at risk by granting amnesty to untold millions of illegal immigrants and our economic security at risk by providing those same illegal immigrants with entitlements costing American taxpayers trillions of dollars, the Republican Senators and the Bush administration failed us.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) I know you believe this bill is not amnesty and that's not what I want to ask you but is President Bush prepared to split his party over this issue, because it looks like that's what's going to happen.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) I think the president has showed remarkable, tremendous leadership on this, and he has done so ever since he was governor of Texas. He has seen this. He has seen this as an issue that's going to impact us throughout this century, and if we don't confront it, it's going to continue to grow. It's not going to go away by ignoring it and I think the fundamental decision is, do you ignore it or do you stand up and say, we have to fix this problem? Because I'll tell you what, George, with this bill and people find imperfections with this bill, but if you go against this bill, are you essentially saying that you're willing to stay with the status quo? GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And Senator Menendez, are you concerned as a Democrat who gets a lot of support from Latino community that if Democrats don't deliver on this, if the deal does collapse then the Latino community will say, you know, you failed us, you didn't deliver? SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Well, I think that people across the country understand that Democrats have been first and foremost for securing our borders, for making our country safer, for driving our economy into greater prosperity and at the end of the day also dealing with undocumented people in this country in a way that's both tough but smart and humane and we have been at the forefront of this debate. As a matter of fact, I applaud the majority leader who gave two months ago notice that we'd be dealing with this issue at this very time and save two weeks of the Senate calendar to deal with it. So it's Democrats who are driving this issue and making sure that we have a policy that is safe, legal and orderly at the end of the day.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Gentlemen, that's all we have time for. Thank you both much.
CARLOS GUTIERREZ (COMMERCE SECRETARY) Thank you.
SENATOR ROBERT MENENDEZ (DEMOCRAT (NEW JERSEY)) Thank you.
Source: U.S. Department of Commerce
