Steve Murphy and Javier Pena are authors of the book, Manhunters: How We Took Down Pablo Escobar. They retired from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, where they led investigations into Pablo Escobar and the Medellin cartel.
Federal Newswire
How have the methods and threats of narcotic smuggling organizations changed?
Steve Murphy
I'll give you a perfect example of the technological changes. When we were working with the Colombian national police back in the early 1990's in Bogota and other parts of the country, one of the items we used to conduct a wiretap is called a pin register. A pin register will tell you the number that's calling, the number that's being called, the date, the time and the duration. It gives you all the basic information there.
Back then, the call would be recorded on a Marantz cult recorder on a little cassette. We would take the cassette and dub it over to a real- to-reel recorder. Then we'd turn the volume up on that reel to reel and we would slowly advance the reel with a finger and count the clicks. That's how we identified the number that was calling or the number that was being called.
That's how primitive it was back then. Things have advanced considerably now.
The criminal organizations always adapt and seem to overcome every technique that we come up with. You have to remember that law enforcement is operating under a government budget. We're limited on resources, whereas they have unlimited funds. So money's never a problem, [and neither is] getting the highest talent if they can get them to work for them. That's never a problem for them. We are always facing that challenge.
It could be as simple as building the wall along the Southern Border. Well, they find ways to defeat that with drones, or by launching a catapult system where they launch bales of Marijuana or drugs across the wall.
That's the challenge. It continually changes.
Javier Pena
We saw it from the start in Colombia…They were ahead of their times. They were sending loads to Mexico, the Caribbean, Spain.
When you talk about a transnational organization, the organization needs a lot of different moving parts. You need the transportation aspect, communications, the money launders, and you need the sell heads.
I remember back then they would send the coordinates into Mexico where the loads would be going to and we had a rudimentary intercept process. But the organizations were set up in that they had their people.
One of the first Mexican traffickers, Marlo Cario Fuentes, was working [with] the cartel in Medellin; they would send loads to them, then they would cross into the United States a lot through the southwest border.
They were already getting more expertise, and you have to remember that the driving force is the money. You had people that were set up only as business people that would send the money back via false bank accounts. Colombia was famous for black market…exchange. They had businesses in the US that would accept cash and then funnel it back through their legitimate accounts back to Colombia.
Federal Newswire
How violent are these organizations?
Steve Murphy
It almost seems like it's a competition. We saw Escobar introduce car bombs, which American law enforcement hadn't seen before. That was kind of shocking to us. He actually declared war on his own country a couple times.
Javier's got a photograph that he took of one of his informants that Pablo found out about and he didn't just kill him, he tortured him. I mean he just mutilated these people. It's one of the most grotesque photographs you'll ever see. After they did all that to the guy, they burned his body and left it out in the public for everybody to see–to send a message.
As horrible as that sounds, it seems like the Mexicans have taken it to a whole new level. You see the bodies hanging off the bridges. You see a guy went into a nightclub and rolled thirteen heads out on the floor. They decapitated thirteen people.
I've seen photographs where they take bodies and they dismember the arms and the legs and they just make it into a lot of different pieces and then they leave it out so people can find it. It's almost as if the the torture and the heinous acts that they commit have no bounds. On top of that…they don't always hire the smartest people to be their killers, their sicarios. Whatever term you want to use for them.
We've seen instances that come out in the media about how they'll kill the wrong person because they pick the wrong car. I remember there was a Catholic Bishop or a Cardinal that was in an airport in Mexico that was murdered because he happened to be driving the same kind of car as somebody else that they were actually looking for.
It's like the violence down there knows no bounds. We saw the four people from North Carolina go across the border from Brownsville, and they were attacked. I’m not sure we still know all the reasons why they were down there. But because you're a gringo, you're a target. It's one of the most dangerous places you could possibly go.
Javier and I were [there] through one of our speaker’s bureaus. We were booked to speak in Mexico City at the Mexico City Arena, this was prior to Covid, and we never ask for a protection detail when we travel. With this one we did and they agreed to it within a month or so of signing the contract. The producers in Mexico called our agent back and said we're already getting death threats on this guy. We can't guarantee their safety. We're canceling the contract.
What makes that significant is they have paid a substantial down payment to book us like that. So they know they lose money on that kind of deal.
But now what's that say about us that we were willing to go down there? You know I like to kid around that the DEA didn't hire us because we were real smart.
Federal Newswire
With these cartels operating within miles of the U.S. border, what challenges does that pose for law enforcement?
Javier Pena
The proximity [is a challenge]. Towards the end of my career I was the agent in charge of the Houston division for DEA, which covered McAllan, Laredo, and Brownsville; all that border area so I was very much involved. We put a lot of manpower and technology into these trafficking organizations. Especially in Mexico, they'll find a way to bypass [them].
We've seen the worst of the traffickers out there. As long as these people can make money, they're going to do whatever they can to cross their dope from the border.
The border is large, and there are a lot of different areas they can sneak across. I grew up in the Laredo border area and we would always encounter the traffickers cutting fences through the ranches. They don't care as long as they're bypassing the checkpoints. Now we're seeing drones.
I compare the violence between Mexico and Colombia. Pablo Escobar's terrorism was based on extradition. He did not want to get extradited; that was all his fight was about.
In Mexico what I'm seeing is intimidation, where they will announce…[to] the territory or the plazas “this is my area, you stay away, you come into my area we're going to kill you.” The violence is worse than intimidation, and they'll back it up.
I grew up around the border area where you have the Mordida factor, which are bribes that have been going on for hundreds of years.
Pablo Escobar had the saying “plata or plomo.” Do you want the money or do you want a bullet? You're going to do what I tell you to do and here's some money. If you're not going to do it, we're going to kill you and go after your whole family.
Like I said, we've seen horrific examples coming out of Mexico.
In a trial here not too long ago a witness was testifying that they killed his little girl and made him open his eyes so he could see the trafficker's killing his little girl. What type of animals do that?
That intimidation factor makes them more sophisticated.
These groups are now more independent. One group will not know what the other one's doing. That way if they get caught they can't snitch because they don't know who the other person is.
Federal Newswire
There is widespread agreement in America that the cartels need to be dealt with, but how would you handle it?
Steve Murphy
I'm going to answer that in a little bit different direction than maybe what you're expecting.
Javier and I are both in favor of more education here in the United States, because if we did not have the demand problem we wouldn't have the supply problem coming out of Mexico, China, Colombia, etc. It seems like we've become so permissive here in the United States that anything is acceptable.
What we tried to warn everybody about all along was the unintended consequences that nobody took the time to consider. They just [say] “hey the public wants this, I can get more votes. Let's vote this in.”
I try to stay apolitical but it's like everything that we get involved with…Whatever happened to common sense?...When I was a uniformed police officer–the same with Javier back in the 70’s and 80’s–police officers…could use their own discretion on how to handle certain things.
I had my first run in with the police when I was 10 years old in Tennessee camping out. We thought we were going to try and break into somebody's house. The officers realized what was going on with all these little 10 year old kids and they said “boys, you've got a decision to make. We're either going to take you to prison for the rest of your lives or we can take you home to your parents.”
You know we all thought about it and looked at each other. We said “take us to jail.” Because I knew what was going to happen when I went home. But the point is they were allowed to use discretion.
We've just gotten away from it. Seems like we've gotten away from all the common sense principles that our country was built on; that we know what is best for the whole.
With the opioid issues and now fentanyl, we're putting narcan kits everywhere and now you can buy them across the counter. I'm just not sure we're approaching that the right way. It seems like there should be demand reduction. How can we reduce the demand for drugs here in the United States?
Javier and I lived with Colombian national police in Medellin for 18 months while we were searching for Pablo. We got to be very good friends with some of the officers there. They would say “why are the Americans so interested in being here in our country to stop this?” We said “well you know if you could stop the cultivation of cocaine in your country we wouldn't have a problem in the United States.” [They would say], “if you didn't have the demand in the United States, we wouldn't produce the cocaine here in Colombia.”
The term ‘war on drugs’ is one of the biggest misnomers I've ever heard. I don't think that we have the commitment the way we should. We certainly haven't in the past. Is it going to get better? I don't know. I don't think it will before I die.
Federal Newswire
Should we go a different route, such as what some Members of Congress have advocated with use of military force?
Javier Pena
When we started going after Pablo Escobar, the Colombian government asked us to help. They wanted us there. Mexico has never asked for our help. If Mexico was willing they would say “guys let's work this problem together.” We'd be ahead of that ballgame like you will not believe.
They wanted us there. We would get intelligence on search warrants, going after public phone numbers, names, bank accounts of people in the United States. We had a full court press on the traffickers in the United States. We were taking down cartel people in Miami and cartel people in Medellin. That's how you dismantle an organization, going after all of the pieces.
Mexico? They do not help us. Do you think they're helping us? Of course not…I've been there, I've worked there. Of course I'll give you bits and pieces of information, but if we had that full 100% cooperation like we did in Colombia the game would change and I am being very serious.
This is an international fight. We need to get better at cooperating. What good is intelligence if you can't use it?
We need to get better in the fight on the border. We’re neighbors and the cooperation is not there. If the cooperation was there this would be a different war.
Steve Murphy
I certainly don't mean to take away from the brave men and women who are protecting our border or who are involved in this fight, whether they're first responders, law enforcement,or military. They do one hell of a job…That's the sad part is our brave men and women who are still fighting this are giving it their all.
We tell recruits this isn't a 9 to 5 job. This is a lifestyle. When you get involved in these types of investigations it affects everything in your life. So we certainly didn't want to take away from the heroes out there. My hat's off to them. I love them. I'll do anything I can to support them.
Federal Newswire
The cartels are also heavily involved in human trafficking. How is this different?
Steve Murphy
That is one of the worst crimes, especially when it comes to child trafficking. We have a podcast and we've interviewed a few people that are involved in trying to save some of these people. The movie that just came out, “The Sound of Freedom,” brought more awareness. But what we're finding out is people are really not aware of just how bad human trafficking is, especially in child sex trade.
What I've learned over the past year or so looking into this is that the worst places for people taking advantage of these children are the United States and Canada. This is something that affects us all.
One lady [on our podcast] said that when she was a teenager she was in a San Jose, California mall and was approached by another lady who said “oh your makeup looks good, do you have a professional do it?” They were baiting this young girl.
They gave her a business card and said “hey if you're interested let us know. We have a makeup company. We do makeup for stars and movies and TV and that kind of thing.” She waits a couple months but eventually she calls them back and they have an initial meeting in an office and everything looks good, everything's positive, and they call for a second meeting in a restaurant and the attitudes of the man and the woman that met her in the restaurant had changed, had done a 180.
She realized something was wrong. She said I'm getting cold and I am going to get my jacket out of my car. She walks out the door and a van pulls up and they snatch her in that trunk and away she goes. Now she's in the human sex trafficking business for the next year or so. Thank God she was able to escape and she's now surviving. But can you imagine the scars that were left on her and her family. I mean the guy that snatched her would drive her over a couple blocks away and at a distance let her see her mom and dad coming out of their house. His threat to her was if you ever leave me, if you ever tell the police about me, I'll kill your mom and dad, I'll kill your brothers and your sisters, and I'll kill that little dog that's running around your front yard.
I know that sounds very dramatic but it's the truth and I think that we are just uneducated about how bad this really is.
I've got a couple friends now that work with Operation Underground Railroad and they don't do things here in the United States but they are going into other countries and they're saving children. There's no higher calling than you're willing to risk your life for your fellow man and that's exactly what these people are doing.
I really wish the United States would open their eyes. Again, politics comes into this because nobody wants to accept responsibility.
Federal Newswire
What do lawmakers need to know or do to tackle human, child, and sex trafficking?
Javier Pena
The message is simple: it's a problem, it's out there. The violence, the drug trafficking, the human trafficking, the sex trafficking. They have to realize that it's not going away. I always go back to, “there's money being made.” These people will do whatever they can.
We see examples on a daily basis, such as the human trafficking in the Laredo area. They're always finding 20-25 immigrants at the stash houses because they're just waiting to ship them north once they pass those checkpoints. The checkpoints are…outside Laredo but once they pass those they've won again.
We've always talked to the legislators. It would cut to Colombia and we'd tell them the truth, and they would listen, all the staffers would come down, the Congress people would come down. But if we do not pay attention it will get out of control. I think that's what's going on right now. It's getting out of control.
Federal Newswire
What are solutions for law enforcement and lawmakers to consider?
Javier Pena
First you cannot abandon the informant piece of intelligence…You cannot abandon it because then we've lost.
We've…always talked about the education piece. We were getting better, then it went away. We need to start earlier at school. I really believe in that education piece, in showing the dangers.
Not too long ago this young kid…said “you know what sir, what scared me the most in class in junior high [we were] shown pictures of all this before and after.” He said “I was scared to death.” You get a perfectly healthy human being and after using dope their teeth are falling out, their skin is drying out on their faces. That younger adult will say “that's what scared me the most yesterday.”
I heard this famous trafficker who served, I think, 17 years in prison. He did everything–started by selling dope. They asked him the same question, and he answered just like I did. He said “start [the education] earlier.”
Steve Murphy
We're terrible at sharing information between agencies. Everybody wants to protect their ground, wants to protect their budgets, wants the credit for everything. That's one of the ugly secrets that the public is not completely aware of, just how territorial federal law enforcement agencies can be. I'm going to guess it probably tides over to the military as well.
I agree with Javier 100% on education. There's an old saying that's been attributed to Albert Einstein or Benjamin Franklin, “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” We're not getting better, so we've got to change what we're doing. We've got to find a better way of doing that.
I've already complained a little bit about being overly permissive, allowing people to just do whatever they want. I taught my children that there are consequences for every decision you make in life. So why are we not holding people accountable and expecting them to accept responsibility for the actions that they take? If it's an addict, okay, let's get them into treatment.
I've got a very close family member that's been in treatment 3 times and is still a drug addict. I'm not sitting back pointing my finger at everybody else. The one thing I don't think that Americans realize is just how closely they are affiliated with someone who is an addict.
[People are] very good at hiding it and I'm talking about children, your extended family, your best friend, their children. If you just look a little closer you'll see that it actually is touching on your life. You just never knew it.
I've spoken at different events where there were some politicians there and they said the same thing. I actually told him who it was in my family and several came up to me afterwards and whispered “hey don't think you're alone, I've got a nephew, or I had a daughter or somebody in my family.” It just affects us all.
What we're doing now is not working. What are we going to do to make it better? We can't keep doing the same thing because that just is insanity.
Federal Newswire
How can we follow your activities?
Steve Murphy
Check us out on our website, www.deanarcos.com. You'll see a lot of photographs there. We have an interactive calendar showing where we're speaking. It talks about how great we think we are!
We have a book out, “Manhunters: How We Took Down Pablo Escobar.” There's a store on our website where you can order autographed and personalized copies. You can also get it on Amazon or wherever you find your books.
We also have a weekly true crime podcast called “Game of Crimes” at www.gameofcrimespodcast.com. We're going into our third year with this now. Nearly every episode has a guest on it. Good-guy heroes. There are stories on there that will actually make you cry. Occasionally we'll throw in a former bad guy just so that our listeners can get an inside look at what the other side thinks about crime.
We're on our eighth year of our worldwide speaking tour.
If you haven't seen the Netflix hit series “Narcos” give it a look. The first two seasons are about Pablo Escobar, and Javier and I are portrayed in it.
Even my wife is portrayed, and here's an inside secret. If you watch episode 10 where Murphy's getting kidnapped–which is Hollywood, I was never kidnapped–you'll see the actor waving as two young girls walk in front of him. Those are my real-life daughters. I have to give them a little plug.
Javier Pena
When we’re at our speaking gigs we tell the real truth of how Pablo Escobar went down.
