Kevin Cirilli is host of The Daily Debrief, a contributor to The Hill, and a visiting media fellow at the Atlantic Council's Global China Hub.
Federal Newswire
Your bio says that you build trust among those “who believe in democratic principles.” What does that mean?
Kevin Cirilli
When I say “democratic principles,” these are things that we all believe to be true as Americans. Freedom of speech, religion, to be who we are, who we are born as. I think that many times we take that for granted.
I don't want to get on a soapbox to start to speak from my own personal experience growing up in suburban Philadelphia and Delco. Then becoming a journalist, and specifically traveling and embedding in the Trump 2016 presidential campaign. At that time it was 2015 and nobody thought that he had a chance to become president.
…I was interviewing voters and protesters. I juxtapose that with the message that I was hearing from the media, which was that democracy is in decline. I would journal and say, “I don't know what democracy they're looking at because the democracy that I'm seeing is thousands of people participating and they're showing up to the rallies or they're showing up to protest the rallies and they're engaging in the process.”
Obviously, over the last couple of years in the pandemic and whatnot, we've seen lots of protests. Some of them are not productive, some of them are. But that's democracy in action and participating, showing up, building democratic trust among stakeholders on the digital frontier.
I don't want to live in a world where I remember when I was coming up…[that] it was called AOL America Online. I don't want to live in Putin online. I don't want to live in Xi Jinping online. I can't imagine that and how dark that would be because they don't believe in my ability to have freedom of speech and to criticize.
We've been having a debate since 1776 about the limits of free speech, and we're having that now in the news. But the fact that we're even having it is what sets us apart from Xi, Putin, and all of the other bad actors.
Federal Newswire
Do you believe it’s comforting knowing that no matter what happens, the institution that is the American government will continue to endure?
Kevin Cirilli
Yes. Weird, I would say. I've been on the record as saying January 6th is a horrible day. I will also say that I recently have become involved with Blue Star Families, which is an organization that works a lot with the folks that you just mentioned to support active duty military families. Their big mantra is ‘do your part.’
America endures, but only if we all do our part. I think for me, in my twenties, that meant I felt a way that I could contribute to whatever this is in a very small part was to be a journalist. But as I've gotten older, I think that's going to evolve and change, especially as the media landscape changes.
…I've been fortunate in the past to have a microphone, but even if you don't have a microphone, especially for young people, democracy is not just posting on social media. It's actually not just talking, it's actually listening. I think that's a big thing that we as a country, collectively and myself included, can do a much better job of, especially as we all look to participate, to help for this to endure.
Federal Newswire
Do you think it’s not just important to be able to speak, but also be able to listen?
Kevin Cirilli
I was in New Hampshire over the summer where I moderated a town hall with Jon Huntsman and Senator Joe Manchin. It's always interesting what the people that we interview have to say. I always find that they're just a setting in this country. When I covered Trump, he was just in many ways just a setting. It was the people around him, the people who supported him, the people who protested similarly to AOC, similarly to the squad, or whatever you want to call them.
To take it back to New Hampshire, regardless of what the people on the stage told me, it was the people who packed the room and set a record of attendance; because they either don't want him to run for president, they want him to run for president, or they're just intrigued.
But what they told me was, “I don't, I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat, and no one's talking to me. I exist. What are you doing?” The elected officials, millionaires, billionaires, and the people who surround them. What are you doing to connect to those people? I think it's uncomfortable for us in the media to talk about [that]. We've done a really poor job of communicating to people outside of the parameters of the way that we framed the national conversation.
I don't mean to just be a critic of it. I want to be able to help talk about it, not to demonize media executives. Of course…we have to reach people who see right through us and who say, “why should I trust you?”
Federal Newswire
Is there something to be said about meeting people who live outside your area, that you might not otherwise meet, and understand how they live?
Kevin Cirilli
Well, for sure. I'm not one of those people who says that technology is the worst thing to ever happen. The internet makes life a lot easier. I'm old enough to be of that…last generation that can remember life before the smartphone.
You need to remember that face-to-face communication, you're never going to be able to replace it. I don't care what anybody says. I think it's really important and it's so unfortunate. One of the worst things that happened in the pandemic was that people lost that. I think that there's still this reentry back to life, not as it was, because I don't necessarily want to live in the time before the pandemic when we learned a lot going through that.
But I think one of the things that was laid bare was just how far off the political discourse had gotten and how as a result of us taking our eye off the ball collectively, we became overly reliant on authoritarianism. Just look at your Amazon order for the holiday season to see where all your packages are coming from. Look at what's coming up for the holidays and the overreliance on China.
Also look at it from a medical supply chain or prison and the opioid addiction crisis, and there's this fight over whether you can actually ban it.
I think we have to remember what we stand for, even if we're not always holding ourselves up to the highest example of that, at least we can check and balance each other. But it doesn't work if we're not talking and listening to one another.
Federal Newswire
What does the Atlantic Council do and how do Xi Jinping and Putin’s cyber capabilities control the flow of information, for not just their people but ours as well?
Kevin Cirilli
The Atlantic Council has been around for more than 60 years. It's NATO's think tank…I really wanted to learn more about NATO because I do believe in alliances and I think that the term globalist has been hijacked. I don't think people use it in the right way at all. If you're ordering off of Amazon, I guess by some people's definition, you're a globalist. But I think many people would argue that the true definition of globalism is to stand for America's principles, stand for democracy and those principles, and to not cave or sell out while you're doing international business.
International business has been around for forever. I really push back against anyone who just throws around the “G” word, for lack of a better term, without using it accurately. Because if you've ever ordered off of Amazon, then technically by your own definition, you're a globalist. Use the right word if you're doing international business.
For me, NATO — and there are smart people who have argued that countries should pay their fair share absolutely — but if you play golf and pay to participate in your club or course, you show up and you have a debate over fees, but you show up. And if the golf course isn't looking good or it's under attack, you show up even more. With NATO, I think right now when I hear people say, “we don't need to be in NATO,” I say, “well, why?”
What are you talking about? Crazy. Yes, you want countries to pay their fair share. The reason we're all paying is so that when we're under attack and our values are under attack, we defend ourselves. We stand up for ourselves and we support one another. It doesn't mean we just write a blank check.
Federal Newswire
As a nation on the world stage, sometimes our negotiations with our allies can evolve into a fight somewhat. However does that mean that alliances are a bad thing?
Kevin Cirilli
Specifically, as it relates to China, nobody wants war. No rational person that I have ever interviewed or that I've ever interacted with is saying that. That being said, I think it doesn't mean that we can't have an honest conversation because I do believe in freedom of speech. I don't want to even get into COVID-19, because historically it's true.
I want to talk about opioids because this is something everyone in America can relate to. I think there's a debate about immigration, drug cartels, and where the drug cartels are getting their supply from. Who is financing them?
Federal Newswire
This is different from the drug war of the 80s as there are fields in South America where these drugs are initially grown. Isn’t fentanyl different in the fact that it’s a fairly sophisticated pharmaceutical that has to be created in a lab somewhere?
Kevin Cirilli
[Yes, it is.] Whether it's negligence or intentional, there's an academic debate about the opioid crisis. I can tell you that everyone describes Xi Jinping as a dictator and no one's not saying it's not China. I think as an American, that infuriates me.
As someone who believes in freedom of speech, we need to ask more questions about that. How can we even fathom that they’re the world's second largest economy? We're still number one but the world's second largest economy is dumping this crap and killing tens of thousands of people. You're going to tell me that it's negligence? Well, then do better politicians in getting something done to put pressure on them to do better.
Federal Newswire
What do you think is the root of the problem and how do we address it?
Kevin Cirilli
One of the questions I always get asked, [in the frame of] putting more pressure on China, is this notion of TikTok. I think it's such a great example of what the media has oversimplified and where we as journalists can do a better job [explaining it] because no one in their right mind is saying to just get rid of an app because it's from China.
That's actually not the conversation we're having. The conversation we're having is about the company that owns TikTok, and the company that owns TikTok is Beijing-based, which is called Bytedance. Bytedance is based in China and as a result of that, they don't have the same principles that we in democracies have, which is a separation between the public and the private sector.
That's why we have so much innovation in our countries, because it's not just being cooped up in a lab somewhere where no one can talk about it. It's not just for certain people. It's to create things. It's for anyone in America.
Specifically with Bytedance, there's no separation in China between the Communist Party and the business sector. They're one and the same. The Communist Party views business to deploy what's called Economic Warcraft. It's not just military warcraft, it's economic, and cyber [as well]. You take Bytedance, which deploys an app on teens and tweens phones. It's not just the data. It's also the idea that a foreign government can have a platform in which Osama bin Laden goes viral the same week that the leader of the Communist Party is present in the United States for the first time in six years.
I hear from certain folks who are engaged in this discussion the question of what would happen for there to be two small businesses on TikTok, and I call B.S. I have to be able to say that. But here's why: I'm old enough to remember Xanga and MySpace, neither of which are a thing anymore, and I think our economy survived.
Federal Newswire
Similar to what China attempted to do with Confucius Institutes in the American education system, is TikTok designed to manipulate the way its viewers think?
Kevin Cirilli
I'm not betting on Bytedance. But specifically with regards to the Confucius Institutes, and this doesn't really get current on the media, but that's a completely nonpartisan issue. There are Democrats like Senator Mark Warner, who's the chairman of the Intelligence Committee. He's a Democrat from Virginia. There are other people like Rep. Mike McCaul, who's the chairman of the House Foreign Relations. He's a Republican from Texas. As is Senator Rubio. [To be clear,] no one is talking about perpetuating any type of discrimination against Asians or any Asian-American.
When people hear Confucius Institutes, what it really is, is a ploy for espionage. It's caused by the CCP on college campuses to start to get data on not just individuals, but also all of the important research that goes on at many of these universities throughout the country. Separate from that, earlier this year the Biden administration [through the] FBI went after and arrested some China espionage centers in Los Angeles. This is a very real threat and luckily or thankfully, it has remained nonpartisan.
Federal Newswire
China has been caught with police stations in New York, using their Belt and Road Initiative to gain access to ports and other infrastructure, and economic warfare. What other tactics are they using?
Kevin Cirilli
They're also doing it on the digital frontier. That's what I've spent my research on. The New York City police station or the Belt and Road Initiative running through Africa, those are both in real life.
But once you’re in the digital space, all of these networks are being built. Who regulates those networks? I'm not talking about from a monetary tax perspective but in terms of who actually built the system which these platforms operate on.
A friend of mine, a media executive, always says, “before it's science, it's fiction.” Well, we're living in the future. I think that that's what I believe the biggest conversation, from a national security perspective, in my lifetime is going to be for texting, the digital frontier, and what exactly that looks like. Because if you own the digital space in many ways…then authoritarian regimes are programming our teens' cellphones.
Federal Newswire
Does this play into the idea that the communist regimes of the Cold War would use our own institutions to turn us against one another?
Kevin Cirilli
I'm not going to argue with the notion that people are polarized. But I also really am particularly optimistic. Not from a naive standpoint, but I'm optimistic at the participation that I see. I don't believe television viewers are the only metric of participation. Nielsen is outdated. I cut the cord a while ago. I'm a YouTuber now.
The reason I'm optimistic is because of all the participation that I see, and I think that there are young people who have forced conversations to be had in this country, that have enacted real significant policy changes that we have seen in our country.
I think the next part of that, which I hope to be in some way either covering or participating, is updating the policy conversations that we have that motivate people to show up. What do I mean by that? I mean I don't have cable, but it's always on in Washington when you walk into a specific place and it's the same stuff. It's literally a repeat episode. Left says this, right says this. Politicians feel that this demographic votes this way, this demographic for that. I'm sitting there thinking, “who the hell is talking about the gig economy or the lack of transparency going on at higher education institutions that, by the way, handed my whole generation a level of debt that makes it right next to impossible to purchase the first time [home]. Who the heck is talking about this mental health crisis that is absolutely decimated and isn't just talking about your feelings or your emotions?”
This is real stuff that has absolutely hurt people. I don't see those debates happening. That's what everybody in my life is talking about.
Federal Newswire
Is this the problem with these first four Republican Presidential debates we’ve seen and how they don’t talk about how they’re going to improve anybody’s lives?
Kevin Cirilli
I really hope that that doesn't happen because I love debates and I think it's such a great tradition. It's a unique tradition in our democracy, because in other countries they don't even have debates. I think there is obviously a performative aspect. I get it. People think, “whatever,” but I hope it doesn't go away.
By the way, I do not like that Trump has not participated in the debates. I get why he wouldn't. But just me as someone who enjoys debates, I wish he would.
Federal Newswire
What’s your new Daily Show about?
Kevin Cirilli
I worked at the Hill in my early twenties…and the Hill.com is the nation's number one political news site, and it's not even close. When I was on fellowship, they asked if I would be interested in coming back as a contributor to do this show on YouTube. It’s nonpartisan and it's called The Daily Debrief.
